Talk:Jean-Luc Picard/archive
:See Talk:Jean-Luc Picard/archive for older topic discussions. Featured Article Nomination (29th July, 2008) The Jean-Luc Picard article is very detailed, including lots of references, images and a timeline of events, as well as relevant quotes and detailed background information. I would like to nominate it for FA status. TrekFan 12:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC) * Oppose: My main objection to this being a featured article is the quote which has come and gone several times from the top of the article; in fact, that single quote has sparked at least three edit wars. This is not the marking of a featured article if agreement cannot even come to what quote we should have up there. Not to mention there is frequent editing on this article and it is not all that stable with reverts, pasting, and removed-readded material appearing and disappearing quite frequently. I do like the article, but alas I must object for now. -FC 03:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC) ::Quote issue resolved, so I recant my oppose vote but dont want to support it just yet due to the instability of the article, large number of edits, and anon ip additions added, deleted, and re-added over the past few months. -FC 13:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': This is a fantastic article, very well detailed. As for the quote, a suggestion I would make is perhaps Admiral J.P. Hanson's line from , which went: "I've never known anyone with more drive, determination or more courage than Jean-Luc Picard." Dave 07:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC) : Comment - A fitting quote. I have added it to the page. TrekFan 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC) * Oppose for now. I too like the article. I think it is extremely detailed and has virtually everything we know about Picard in it. I do have a few concerns, some minor: *# One is the section in appendices "References in Other Trek Series". The whole section is in-universe, so it needs an in-universe title. *# I don't like the idea of the "Miscellaneous Information" section. This can surely be incorporated elsewhere into the article. *# I can't help but feel the relationships section, while nicely detailed for each person, is rather selective. Shouldn't Troi and Wesley get a short section each? *# His actions in the Klingon arc are noted in the intro paragraph, but I feel they should have their own section. Career-wise, they're certainly as significant as his encounters with the Borg and Q.– Cleanse 01:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Comment' - I have changed the title (point #1) to "References by other people". I will look at incorporating point #2 into the article itself. - TrekFan 02:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Support': While I do believe some of the points made here are valid, I also believe that this article is well written, and more then qualifies for FA as is. [[User:Melak|'Melak']] talk 18:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Support': Very good article.--Aamin Marritza 13:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC) ::My first two concerns have been met, and the second two are more icing on the cake so I recant my oppose vote.– Cleanse 07:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC) * Comment: Aesthetically speaking, I'm not keen on how the italicized background comments are pushed into the same space as regular text by images placed on the left. Such information should be indented and offset from the main content, but with the left placed images the formatting that would otherwise differentiate the two pov's are crushed together, and italics alone are not enough to offset the pov change (seeing as italics also denote an alternate timeline in our style of formatting). I'd rather see that somehow resolved...images moved to the right to restore the formatting, or the indented italics moved away from the left images, before this is featured. --Alan 07:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC) ::That's a good point. I think those left images should be moved to the right.--Aamin Marritza 12:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC) :::Done.– Cleanse 12:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *'Comment': Come on, guys! We only need two more votes! TrekFan 17:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC) *'Conditional support' - Having thoroughly examined the article, it is certainly one of the better candidates we've had, and there are just a few things I'd like to see changed. The Guinan section should include the very important events of ; the placement of the Image:Jean-Luc Picard, 2370.jpg in the Q section seems odd, the Worf section seems short, and I'm weary about the "alternate picard"'s quotes being in the "real picard's" quotes section. Other than these minor things - absolutly fantastic article!!! - AJ Halliwell 18:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC) ::I have moved the Picard image further up so it is in the section about his time on the Enterprise. I have also added another Q image to the Q section in its place and removed the AR quotes from the quotes section. TrekFan 11:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': It's nice, detailed, has lots of good pictures. ~Anya Prynn | ''Talk'' 13:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': Now that it looks like all issues have been resolved, I would like to express my support for this article to be featured, too. --36ophiuchi 17:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *Voting concluded. Five votes for FA status. TrekFan 19:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Between Stargazer and Ent-D? Do we have any information on what Picard was doing during this period? If I recall in "All Good Things..." the scene where Picard takes command of the Ent-D has him reciting his orders; something like: "To Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you are hereby requested and required to..." was there a mention of his current posting in that order? "To Captain Jean-Luc Picard, commanding officer USS-shipname, you are hereby requested and required..." Or do we just not have any info? Logan 5 18:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC) Additionally, the episode seems to indicate that he was commanding a different ship when he first met Tasha Yar but I'm not sure it's ever been mentioned by name. Seems a long period for him not to be in command, or maybe he was posted to a starbase or at Starfleet Headquarters? Do we have even a non-canon mention of this time period? Logan 5 17:10, 15 Sep 2005 (UTC) Opening Quote IF we want an opening quote on this page (which is not something I encourage), is this truly one that reflects Picard's personality? Ottens 17:11, 10 Jan 2006 (UTC) :I personally don't think an opening quote is necessary, nor do I believe this is a quote which best describes Picard. --From Andoria with Love 18:05, 10 Jan 2006 (UTC) ::I support the current quote and opening quotes in general. Jaf It might be useful if you provided us with some kind of argumentation in order to possibly convince us of the necessity of keep this quote. Ottens 13:38, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC) :::I also think an opening quote might be problematic, it relies on a "value judgment" on whether the quote does well to introduce or summarize the character's life (which is what the article -- and therefore the quote -- should be about) -- easy enough if the person is describing themselves in the quote, but how about this one? Picard is talking about a holodeck experience with horses, not describing his life this quote is adding artificial allusions about the scope of his "reins" comment -- such as that it has to do with anything besides his horse and saddle. Does this really seems impartial as a choice? In the world of metaphor, its difficult to remain "encyclopedic". -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:36, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC) ::He was talking to Riker about being in command when he said it. ::::I think a good opening quote for Picard might be what he said to Admiral Haftel in : "There are times, sir, when men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders." That, I think, summarizes Picard's character better than anything else. --Antodav 19:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC) ::::: I support the existing opening quote. It is marked as Tasha Yar's statement and it expresses her view of Picard. Nothing wrong with that and her opinion seems to me to describe Picard well.--Skon 16:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC) ::::::Just a note, the current quote and the quote being discussed at the beginning of this converstation are not the same. Look at the dates, you will note this is an old converstation. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC) Revisited As the article on JLP has gone up for featured article status, one person has commented on the quote used. I suggested the new one (by JP Hanson) but feel free to tell me if it "doesn't fit" the character of Picard. Dave 12:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC) :Erm, I think Tasha Yar's quote from would be more adequate as I believe it sums up the main traits of his personality, the predilection for art and exploration. Picard himself emphasized many times he was an "explorer", last time in when Shinzon wanted to learn more about his alter ego:(Shinzon: "Were the Picards always warriors?")Besides this, many episodes revolve around his interest for archeology, literature and other forms of art.--Aamin Marritza 10:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC) It's funny, as there has been so much debate on this one area in particular. There's no one specific quote that can really sum up a person all at the same time, so I reckon there should be two quotes (three at a stretch). Aamin Marritza, what was Tasha's quote? Dave 16:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC) ::This was discussed extensively in the debate to make this a featured article. The quote at the top of the page was constantly being changed, removed, and readded. There at last came a general agreement for a single quote to remain in the article at the top of the page. I would urge people not to go back to changing this quote, removing it, or adding others in which they feel should be better. As this is now a featured article, we should avoid such edits which would detract the status of this article. -FC 17:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC) :Tasha's quote was:...the heart of an explorer and the soul of a poet or something like that. As I recall, it was featured as the opening quote in an earlier version and I can't really tell from the discussions on this talk page what you had against it in the first place. On tehe other hand, I do believe the actual quote is too flat and general. Almost every character was praised for his drive and ambition at least once during the series. And I really don't think changing the quote would affect the article status.--Aamin Marritza 18:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC) :: I never said I had anything against it. I'm simply saying a general agreement was reached during the FA discussion and I see no need to repeat the same discussion. -FC 19:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC) :Well, it may be so. But I suggested now a more fitting quote, which seems to have been favored in the past, and no one has yet objected against it.--Aamin Marritza 19:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC) ::And yet again no one has even bothered to answer, instead aparking another pointless discussion below ten days later. Great communication. I'm changing the quote to Tasha Yar's statement for the reasons above.--Aamin Marritza 09:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC) :::Except that quite clearly below, the majority of people have agreed NOT to change it.– Cleanse 09:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC) ::::Do you actually give a damn about community consensus or the rules about here, Marritza? Do you realize you are NOT the only person here, and that you have been massively and completely outvoted? Do you realize that it is 5 to 2 (assuming you and DistantlyCharmed are in fact separate accounts) against you now, with the addition of Morder to those names already below? You need to move on! --OuroborosCobra talk 09:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC) :::::Don't be a jerk, dude. Also I'm writing a rather lenghty reply at the bottom of the page--Aamin Marritza 09:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC) Quote, again I find the current quote inadequate in describing Picard in his essence. Having courage and determination apply to half of he captains and COs in the Star Trek world and the Federation in particular. That quote is generic and can be applied to all federation captains as far as i am concerned. It simply does not summarize the uniqueness and personality of jean-luc picard well, but the quote by Tasha Yar, in which she describes him as a man who has the heart of an explorer and the soul of a poet does. The rest of the article is great, the quote...not so. – Distantlycharmed 00:10, 16 August 2008 (UTC) :I certainly doubt that Admiral Hayes is able to say that he has never known anyone with more of those qualities than anyone in Starfleet. Generally speaking, you can only have one that is more than everyone else. I'd ask that you read Talk:Jean-Luc Picard#Opening Quote before continuing further. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC) This is now just semantics here. Whether Hanson says that he thinks Picard is courageous and determined or whether he says that he has never met anyone ‘’more’’ courageous and determined than Picard doesn’t change anything about the fact that this quote is bland, generic, cliché and inappropriate for Picard. Of course, as some pointed out, there is never just one quote alone that sums up a person in life, but some do a better job than others. In selecting a quote for an opening article such as this one, we need to find one that reflects Picard’s personality. Being courageous and determined is ‘’not’’ something that makes Jean-Luc Picard stand out and be different from so many other captains and personalities in the Federation. Sure he might be more courageous and determined than some, according to Admiral Hanson's personal opinion by the way, but it doesn’t really fit as an instantly recognizable hallmark of Picard’s personality for what makes Picard stand out, be who he is, IS his heart of an explorer and soul of a poet – in this regard he is unlike all the other starship Captain’s we know, who each have their very own idiosyncrasies. Picard gave up being an archeologist because he is an explorer and wanted to join Starfleet. He joined even when his own father was against it. He risked, or had in fact, his brother be alienated from him because being an explorer was so important to him, He truly has that quality engraved in him…at the same time he is also a man of incredible sensitivity, character, tranquility of personality, delicate; he is soft-spoken, is not the loud, rowdy, egocentric man who occasionally let’s libido and urges drive his actions (like Kirk sometime, or Riker)….he used to be, as a young cadet, as we found out in , but as he admitted that was all ego…he loves Shakespeare, art, the written word – he as a book displayed in his ready-room, archeological artifacts, he in fact goes to bed every night with a book in his hand…all these qualities truly give him the soul of a poet. He is so unlike all the other starfleet captains. Thus, the quote by Tasha Yar truly summarizes Picard’s essence in a nutshell. Of course he is so much more than just that – but as I said above, the whole point of an opening quote is the extent to which it really succinctly, beautifully and accurately captures the essence and personality of the subject it describes. So the reason I go into lengths to explain this is because I really want people to understand why Admiral Hanson's quote just does not give Picard the due and deserved credit. Picard is determined and couragegous, but such a description is what you might find in his personnel file...And yes I have indeed read the sections about the quote and still decided to post here...– Distantlycharmed 01:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC) ::As I explained to User:Aamin Marritza, the opening quote was a cause of much edit warring and reverting of this article and during a lengthy discussion on the featured article status, the present one was agreed upon. I am very much against changing this quote as it would slap in the face of the agreement which was reached during the featured article debate and return this article to the state it was where every few days a new red link account with few to no contributions was showing up to change the quote based on an episode they saw or a personal opinion about Picard. Let's not fix whats not broken and leave this alone. -FC 21:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC) :::While I think the whole "We agreed, therfore we can't change it" argument is somewhat overwraught, I think the current quote is better than the "heart of a poet" one, which I thought was actually cringe-worthy. :::If only Vreenak had met Picard...everyone seems to like the Benjamin Sisko one...– Cleanse 00:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC) :For the record, when looking at my talk page and this one, we have Distantlycharmed in favor of change, OuroborosCobra and FleetCaptain and TrekFan and Cleanse against changing the quote. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC) ::::I think the quote that best sums up Picard is "Engage". :) But seriously this is old hat...it's an FA now and thus there shouldn't be any major changes left to this article. – Morder 00:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC) :::::I also oppose changing the quote, for the reasons already listed.--31dot 00:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC) I agree, "engage"" sums up Picard pretty well :p As a matter of fact it would probably be better than the current one anyway. So let me get this straight, FAs are not ''supposed to be changed? They are sort of set in stone? I am really curious to know. If that is the case, then why not simply lock the ''edit page option then? I mean that would make more sense and we wouldn’t get into such situations where no one is allowed to make changes and then when they do, they get yelled at etc. Unless of course it is not set in stone in which case I dont understand why everyone is acting like it is. And by the way, regardless of how many people support the current quote because they dont wanna jepoardize its status, I stand by what I said - it simply is generic and I believe that when this was being discussed previously quite a few people shared my view.– Distantlycharmed 04:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC) ::::::No, no, you can edit and add to any article on the site, featured or otherwise. That's why it's a wiki. Out of courtesy (and to avoid being "yelled at"), one should try not to change potentially contentious issues, without at least bringing it up on the talk page first.--Tim Thomason 04:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC) :::::Of all the starship captains in Starfleet, there must be at least one or two more who also fit Tasha's quote. I don't see how that is any less "generic" that the current one, or how your arguments against that one don't apply to yours. It really comes down to a matter of opinion, and in this case, opinion doesn't favor the poet quote. Without a compelling, different, reason to change it, it should be left alone.--31dot 11:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC) :::::::Distantly, you have been out-voted. 4 to 1. Since this is a community project, it seems the vote is it stays. I don't see why you are making such a big deal over a quote anyway. It's one small fraction of the article, and, as I said in OC's talk page, if you had any concerns about the article, they should have been brought up when the article was going through the FA nomination process. -- TrekFan 16:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Well, I have already dropped the subject but someone keeps brining it up. I have given a very compelling argument as to why Yar's quote is more appropriate for Picard. See above. If you still cant comprehend that, then so be it. At the same time, however, I have not seen any compelling argument or or explanation whatsoever as to why the current quote is really summing it up. Except for nah, we dont wanna change it, let's keep it I really havent heard anything substantial supporting it either way. Lastly, I really would like to know what other starship captain yar's quote could apply to as well. Really. Kirk, Archer, Janeway? Worf, or Data or Sulu? Maybe Spock or Scotty? Some things are not a matter of opinion and even if they are, as long as they can be substantiated then great. Anyway, whether the quote stands or doesnt , doesnt make much of a difference to me ultimately. I just thought I bring it up since this is the place for it. My life doesnt evolve around Star Trek so I guess I missed the whole nomination process. I dont even know when it was. Anyway, this was just to respond to the above. – Distantlycharmed 17:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC) :::::::If you looked directly above this talk topic you would see the Archived FA nomination, and nobody objected to the changed quote. -- TrekFan 18:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC) :::::::: That doesn't invalidate the concern or legitimacy of the current discussion. IMO, a "descriptor quote" at the intro of an article is not very "encyclopedic" anyway. --Alan 22:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC) ::::: I comprehend your argument just fine, thank you. I just think the same arguments you are making could be made against your suggestion, and to me that is not compelling. But to each his own.--31dot 00:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC) FC, well now this is ridiculous, just because someone doesnt have a "blue link" account, doesnt mean their contributions are irrelevant or little or should be dismissed. Speaking of missing the whole point of a wiki. I dont know if you were referring to me, but I certainly have not suggested the change based on "one episode I saw" or personal opinion. You seem to be very quick and generous with blind, unsubstantiated accusations it seems. You've done that before too. Anyway, this debate over a quote has gone too far for sure.– Distantlycharmed 03:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC) :Now that this debate has been declared "over" at least twice, and now that basically no one is talking about the quote anyways, and just taking pot shots at each other, can we lay this to rest? By the way, I happen to agree with these quotes being unencyclopedic to begin with, and started to fight these 2 years ago, but that is neither here nor there and also has nothing to do with the current debate. --OuroborosCobra talk 04:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC) ::Yes, I agree with OC, end this now. I also dont know why my name got dragged up 3 days later. I actually tried to help our friend up there suggesting that he establish a permanent account and so forth; its just a fact that people tend to take established accounts more seriously. The history of the article being vandalized by anon red link accounts had nothing to do with D.C. in any case (and I never said it did); it happened weeks and months ago causing instability which was also brought up during the FA discussion. In any event, close this discussion now as OC suggested. -FC 09:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC) :::::::::Closed. — Morder 09:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::Apparently not closed. Due to an edit war, the quote has now been removed entirely and the page has been protected. When everyone can agree on a quote, then and only then can a quote be added. Since a quote is unnecessary, though, it would be great if this entire thing ended here and now. --From Andoria with Love 09:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC) First Officer on the Stargazer? I seem to recall that Riker once stated to Picard something about him being a former first officer. If this is true (I'm thinking from a second or third season episode), then Picard would have been the first officer on the Stargazer in 2333. Does any of this sound familiar or have I been daydreaming?--Tim Thomason 17:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC) :You haven't been daydreaming. I think it was during a first season episode. -Scottmz ::Is there anything that establishes that Picard was never on another ship? Or that he couldn't be First Officer of something besides a ship? ::--Commodore Sixty-Four(talk) 04:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC) First contact with Ferengi? I think that it was Jonathan Archer who made first contact with the Ferengi when they tried to steal everything of his ship. :A) That wasn't the Federation, B) He did not know they were Ferengi, never got a name. --OuroborosCobra talk 11:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC) ::Even so, it wasn't Picard who made first contact. Whilst Archer was the first Human, in , Groppler Zorn said "The Ferengi would be very interested in a base like this." Obviously there had been previous contact or the away team would have said, "Who?" True, the Ferengi were never named in but remember that many events in Enterprise came under scrutiny, many people stated that it couldn't be canon. Most of it is but it is quite hard to stay "within continuity". Dave 12:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC) :Picard made first contact with the Ferengi while on the , before Encounter at Farpoint. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC) :you just contradicted yourself. when picard was on the stargazer he did not know who the ferengi where. according to this line of thinking then archer would be the one who made first contact. (Grim reap 09:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)) ::You have contradicted yourself. Why wouldn't that line of thinking apply to your statement as well? Archer didn't know who they were either, and he never found out. Picard would later find out that he had met the Ferengi. I think that qualifies him as being the first to contact them.--31dot 12:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC) ::Additionally, the statement in EAF does not mean too much other than as a competitor for the base. The Federation doesn't have to have met them in order to compete with them.--31dot 12:21, 13 July 2008 (UTC) 27 First Contacts I'd think it would be interesting to try bringing together a list of Picards first contacts and see if we reach the number 27 or even go above it. This could certainly be included as a bg note IMO. Out of memory: *Q *Cytherians *Ferengi *Zalkonians *Tamarians *Borg Kennelly 17:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :There was also the Malcorians, Mintakans, and maybe the Satarrans and Lysians. I don't know about those last two, they come from . Also the Edo. Just a few more. ----Willie 17:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC) ::Were the Edo established as a "first contact"? --OuroborosCobra talk 17:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :I'll have to watch the episode again, but IIRC that was the first time humans went to Rubicun III. ----Willie 17:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :::Well here is Picard's captain's log from the episode. You be the judge "Captain's Log, Stardate 41255.6. After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system we have discovered another class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system. We are now in orbit there having determined it to be inhabited as well as unusually lovely. My first officer has taken an away team down to make contact and they are in the process of returning to the ship." ::: Stargazer Captaincy The first paragraph about Picard's service aboard the Stargazer, that mentions how he became captain, is unreferenced. What episode did this come from? Can somebody please add this reference. Thank you. -– Ds093 18:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC).. Shinzon/Academy Picard age I saw that there was a post reversion on a change made to Picards age as "late teens". I'm not in favor necessarily of it saying "late teens", or "early 20's"... but do we have a canon citation for either? Wouldn't perhaps "young adult" be better? Of course an actors age has absolutely nothing to do with his characters age, but keep in mind that Hardy was even 25 when Nemesis was released. Opinions? Citations? References?– Hossrex 05:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC) :We know exactly how old he was at the Academy since we have his birthdate (2305) and his year of graduation (2327). He was stated to be 21 when he graduated, per "Q" in and started a year late because he failed his first entrance exam . With four years of classes, that means he was a new cadet at the age of 18. Interesting, that if he had passed his first test he would have become a cadet at 17. -FleetCaptain 11:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC) But the question was "how old was Picard when he took the picture we saw on screen of him in his academy gear", not "how old was he when he started the academy". The question is in an effort determine how old Picard was in the picture we saw Tom Hardy "play" him, so we know whether to call him "late teens", or "early 20's". I think its as equally reasonable to say he was in his early 20's, as it is to say late teens... and thus any specifics regarding EITHER is speculation, and should be replaced with "young adult", or some other such. By your own admission, he was at the academy at both ages 20, and 21 (if he graduated at 21, he would have to have been there at 21). So... he was at the academy at ages 18, 19, 20, and 21... yet we're assuming that picture was taken in the first half of his formal education. Why? – Hossrex 22:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC) Errrrrrrr... nevermind. :) You didn't mention in the talk page that you'd gone ahead and changed the article. :) I wholeheartedly endorse the changes made. Thank you. :) – Hossrex 22:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC) "Spock's wedding" not completely canon This article states: "As a young lieutenant, Picard assisted at Spock's wedding, where he briefly met with Spock's father, Sarek, for the first time. (TNG: "Sarek") :The ambassador saved on Milika III might have been Spock, Sarek or Spock's wife, which would explain Picard's invitation to the wedding. However, Picard declared in the 2360s that he only met Spock and Sarek once. (TNG: "Sarek", "Unification I")" Sarek never says that the son whose wedding Picard attended was Spock. It is implied that it is, but is this really the hard fact we need to be included in this article? Seeing as how Sarek is already known to have two sons (Sybok and Spock), who's to say he hasn't had more since with Perrin or even Amanda? Only the non-canon novel Vulcan's Heart verifies that it's Spock's wedding. – Topher 03:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC) :Mainly because there is only one canon son alive during Picard's life. To suggest there are more, that is non-canon. --OuroborosCobra talk 03:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC) ::Well, stating that there's definitely only one would be just as much speculation. I'm rewording the bit about the wedding - and, I'm removing the background note about the saved ambassador. Not only is it pure speculation, it even delivers its own direct contradiction... -- Cid Highwind 06:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC) :::I like Cid's current wording. But I think a short bg note stating that the person being married was intended to be Spock is in order. In the Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, it has the following note: :::"Though Sarek's famous son Spock is later seen to be very much alive, Behr recalled the battle at the time just to ''mention the character at all, with caution still in place about dealing with the original series. Picard does say he attended the wedding of Sarek's son as a lieutenant though again Spock is not specified''" :::Which seems to confirm the statement was intended to refer to Spock– Cleanse 02:31, 14 April 2008 (EDT) Cid's wording is better, but still reads into Picard's words by claiming he had assisted in the wedding. As far as I recall, this is not what is said. According to an online transcript, the captain's line is, "I met him once, many years ago, very briefly at his son's wedding. I can tell you that was quite a moment for a young lieutenant, standing in the presence of such history. I remember he spoke to me and I just stood there grinning like an idiot." I think it should be: "As a young lieutenant, Picard attended the wedding of Sarek's son where he briefly met Sarek and Spock for the first and only time before the 2360s. ( ) :Caution was still in place during the writing of about dealing with characters from The Original Series, thus it is only implied that the son in question is Spock. (Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion) Picard's line in only states that he has met Spock before but does not explicitly state when that meeting occurred, though likely it would have been at the wedding. '' " Consensus? – Topher 19:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC) ::Sounds good. FWIW, I just worked on what was there to remove the speculation about it being Spock's wedding. Background note looks good, too. -- Cid Highwind 19:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC) :::Looks good to me :-)– Cleanse 22:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC) Memorable Quotes Are the quotes on personnel pages necessary? They seem to clutter up the page with all the links to each individual episode that the quote is from. They're also not consistent across pages. Some personnel have quotes some don't. Riker, Data, Yar, Troi, Wesley, (his mother has one) don't have quotes but Worf seems to have a few and they really, to me, look out of place. I'm wondering what the consensus view is here at alpha. --Morder 00:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC) :The pages without quotes are just because no one has added any yet. I don't really think 20 odd lines "clutter" a page that is 83kb long... :I think this falls squarely under Memory Alpha:Inform and entertain. They also provide additional insight into the character, whether it be Picard's speeches, Kirk's comments on women, or Worf's deadpan one-liners. – Cleanse 01:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC) No problem. By clutter I mean it's just annoying to see all the links to each episode that the quotes are from. No problem though. I'll add quotes when I find good ones...if I find good ones. --Morder 01:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC) Toehold? I don't know if this is just me, but does the phrase "gain a toehold" actually make sense? I thought the phrase was "gain a foothold". This is the sentence I am talking about: *"...dissidents to gain a toehold on the Romulan homeworld."'' Any thoughts? TrekFan 12:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC) :Maybe they weren't big enough to have a "foot"? :D Seriously, though, toehold would imply a smaller foothold, seeing as the toe is part of the foot. It's just semantics. R2data 13:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC) Images I think we should solve the problem of further differentiating the italicized background comments by moving the left images that affect their formating to the right.--Aamin Marritza 12:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC) Same rank The Background Information section has a line reading: "Other than in alternate realities, Picard is one of only two characters to hold the same rank throughout the entire series. Data is the second." What about Dr. Crusher? She was a Commander (three pips) from start to finish, wasn't she?--(unsigned) : I removed the line. I guess by "the entire series" it is referring to TNG + the TNG movies. Otherwise, you could probably add Riker (minus one brief field promotion) to that list.--Tim Thomason 04:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC) The quote Since attention is not a virtue here, I had to shorten my initial comment. I really think this issue has not been properly resolved. I felt the quote was awful, came to this page, looked at the opening quote discussion, seen only confusion and no relevant agreement so I suggested a new quote. FleetCaptain was the only one to oppose a change, talking about edit wars and a consensus on the featured article nomination page. But: #It seems the supposed edit wars he was talking about implied people unwilling to reach consensus on talk page (as I said, the previous discussions I found on the talk page here showed no agreement and even confusion as to what which quote was being debated). As such, I feel Tasha Yar's quote, which was used in earlier versions of the article (at the time I viewed it), was removed without consensus or a proper reason. The only step towars a consensus seemed User:Skon's comment supporting Tasha's quote. #The consensus at the nomination for featured article was achieved as follows: someone suggested a quote and two users agreed. This is exactly what I tried to do here: I suggested a better quote, detailed my reasons for it and asked for opinions. I believe the "a consensus has been reached thus it cannot be changed" thing is exaggerated and detrimental for the betterment of an encyclopedia. Yet this was the main reason of FleetCaptain's opposition, the only significant reaction I got. He also said he had no objections to my quote but was holding previous consensuns more important, an almost contradictory statement in my opinion, since the previous consensus had been achieved by no one raising objections to a suggestion. Other than this, no one cared to add his opinion. Again, I did what any normal user can do when he feels something is wrong: I used the talk page, I made a suggestion and received anemic reaction. I've been caught up for two weeks in RL and when I return, noticed no further reply to my previous discussion but a new one, in which a different user (despite some editor's assumption, I am not that user. I imagine moderators would have special tools to avoid any unfair practice) also attempted to have the quote changed. Frankly, I read everything up until FleetCaptain's comment about "redlinks" which I was greatly annoyed of. I then skimmed through the text, got the impression everyone was running in circles again, decided I've had enough and finally edited the section. Needless to say, Oroboros Cobra's ad hominem attacks didn't strike me as very constructive (neither were FleetCaptain's jerk comments). From what I've seen, the "community" is interested more about technicalities such as unchangeable consensus (since this is the opposing editors' main if not only reasoning), interested more about ridiculizing other users than actually trying to talk things out.--Aamin Marritza 10:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)